(;GM[1]FF[4]CA[UTF-8]AP[CGoban:3]ST[2]
RU[Chinese]SZ[19]KM[7.50]TM[5100]OT[1x20 byo-yomi]
GN[EGP Final - B: Lisy, 2p vs W: Shikshin,2p]PW[Ilja Shikshin]PB[Pavol Lisy]WR[2p]BR[2p]DT[2019-01-27]EV[European Grand Prix 2018 Final]RO[Final]PC[The KGS Go Server at http://www.gokgs.com/]C[hvk [-\]: Hi 
EGPF1 [?\]: hi
hvk [-\]: Who is black and who is white
hvk [-\]: ? 
]
;B[pd]
;W[dp]C[hvk [-\]: ? 
]
;B[pq]
;W[dd]C[Laman [2d\]: b Lisý, w Shikshin
]
;B[fq]C[hvk [-\]: Tx 
]
;W[qo]C[Shinichi56 [-\]: R5
]
;B[qp]
;W[po]
;B[np]
;W[qk]
;B[cn]
;W[fp]
;B[gp]
;W[fo]
;B[dq]
;W[cq]
;B[eq]
;W[cp]C[Shamash [?\]: they are really the strongest european pros, often in finals against each other
]
;B[cl]
;W[ip]
;B[go]
;W[dm]
;B[gm]C[xDragon [?\]: It's debatable
]
;W[cm]
;B[bm]C[xDragon [?\]: Who number 2 is at least
]
;W[dn]
;B[bo]C[EGPF1 [?\]: they are for th third time in a row in a big touornament final
Shamash [?\]: thank you EGPF1
xDragon [?\]: Doesn't mean much
Uberdude [4d?\]: pavol is yet to do well in chinese c league
Laman [2d\]: if this was a poll, i'd agree with Shamash. and the rating says the same
EGPF1 [?\]: Grand Slam 2018, EC 2018 and now EGPF 2018
Uberdude [4d?\]: last 2 years it was mateusz and then ilya who got a nice number of wins
Uberdude [4d?\]: mateusz was on lower board though
Uberdude [4d?\]: so when to p3
]
;W[co]
;B[bn]C[U [-\]: weird how people cna be sur esure about a subjective thing
U [-\]: can be so sure*
Shamash [?\]: not sure, just a feeling when you look a the results
Laman [2d\]: also weird how people can doubt some objective things
EGPF1 [?\]: subjective things are a feeling an opinion, objective are rating and performance on many tournaments
U [-\]: well you want to crown a number 2 because of recent tournaments
U [-\]: which have a ton of variance
EGPF1 [?\]: you cannot judge a strength of a player just from one tournament
U [-\]: i guess if ilya doesnt make finals then hes no longer numnber 1
U [-\]: based on your logic
U [-\]: or if he loses today
Shamash [?\]: no he already loses against pavol in final
Uberdude [4d?\]: e9 h2 m3 p3 are main choices
Shamash [?\]: but hey he is in final again
EGPF1 [?\]: id Ilja wins this tournament, he will be promoted to 3p
U [-\]: and yet we consider ilya clear number 1 right?
anarchia: i would choose f9
anarchia: e9
anarchia: seems a tad risky though
anarchia: black can cut and then....
]
;W[dj]
;B[dl]C[comfyditch [1k\]: does having advNCED to 2p mean much?
]
;W[gn]C[miao [8d\]: depends
Laman [2d\]: comfyditch: means playing longer and winning more than the 1ps
Uberdude [4d?\]: the egf promotion system seems fairly sensible to me
comfyditch [1k\]: in the European Pro League
]
;B[hn]
;W[fn]C[comfyditch [1k\]: who else has promoted from the old band of usual suspects playing one another?
]
;B[fl]C[Sosnovsky [2d\]: where can I find the results so far?
Liso66 [?\]: you could read nice article from artem about promotion https://www.eurogofed.org/index.html?id=238 
EGPF1 [?\]: > comfyditch: everybody :) just number of playerswas much larger, that is because we have just a few pros in our system so far
qazxsw: y5
qazxsw: h5
CoSting [3k\]: why no sound on twitch?
EGPF1 [?\]: BTW, they do not gain points for just defeating each other, but also tournament/results against pros from other regions count
]
;W[ho]
;B[hq]
;W[el]
;B[ek]
;W[em]C[miao [8d\]: this doesn´t quite seems right to me
]
;B[dk]C[miao [8d\]: but what do i know :)
]
;W[iq]
;B[ir]
;W[jr]
;B[hr]C[Uberdude [4d?\]: no big mistakes, though LZ suggests following break out for white: f8 h7 h3 e8 e9 g8 e7 f7 
anarchia: i just read linked article, "lazy Ali" is something i will remember
Uberdude [4d?\]: cos if b connects at end there it gets good for w
]
;W[kq]C[hvk [-\]: Gg bauk ? 
Uberdude [4d?\]: sometimes black is supposed to h4 atari and then h2 and g2 for eyespace
Uberdude [4d?\]: but j5 can help w outside
Uberdude [4d?\]: so should w atari there himself
hvk [-\]: Ok 
miao [8d\]: i would propably play c2 here
]
;B[cr]
;W[br]
;B[ds]C[miao [8d\]: if b4 come back to n3
miao [8d\]: *b1
miao [8d\]: oh
miao [8d\]: actually it is not so simple
]
;W[fk]
;B[hm]
;W[ej]
;B[bk]
;W[bs]C[miao [8d\]: white manufactored two hot sopts
miao [8d\]: c10 and  p3
miao [8d\]: this is pretty unplesant for black
]
;B[cj]
;W[gk]C[miao [8d\]: g9 is unexpected to me
Weishenme [6d\]: why not B G9 before playing c10 ?
hvk [-\]: I was betting on a black forehead and a night array from 40 to 60 white to black
kjh97 [8d\]: g9 protects the cut for w
]
;B[mq]C[Uberdude [4d?\]: what would you play miao, p3?
miao [8d\]: yes
Uberdude [4d?\]: LZ approves =)
Uberdude [4d?\]: or q4
Uberdude [4d?\]: clear miai
kjh97 [8d\]: yyeah bottom right was more urgent
Uberdude [4d?\]: this way b can try to get both
Uberdude [4d?\]: not so clear fighting now
YoungPro [7d\]: This game is going to be very exciting
YoungPro [7d\]: these two are meeting in most latest top tournaments :- )
YoungPro [7d\]: in finals I mean ^^ 
TheThe [4k\]: is there a live video feed?
scurge [?\]: To me this is looking very favorable for black
Liso66 [?\]: youngpro you don't for globis cup? 
miao [8d\]: it is complicated, but i also think black is most lkely very comfortable
miao [8d\]: also r11 is annoying
Takimme [1k\]: L6 
YoungPro [7d\]: I could not really get to Olomouc ^^ It was announced very late that it will be in Olomouc, another player Oscar Vazquez, also did not have chance to go there because of late announcement.
YoungPro [7d\]: We talked with organizers about this issue, for future tournament qualifications and they said that it will most likely be solved for next year.
Liso66 [?\]: oh it is sad :/
Uberdude [4d?\]: l6 nice haengma
miao [8d\]: i find it hard to see a good move for white here
YoungPro [7d\]: n3 is so nice
EGPF1 [?\]: Globis Cup will be for sure solved, the problem this year was, that we learn quite late about requirement from Japan, and still it was one month earlier, than last year, because we urged Nihon Kiin to send us information in advance
]
;W[jk]C[Uberdude [4d?\]: no european player at globis cup this year?
kjh97 [8d\]: globis is fun, free money for losing 2 games to pros
EGPF1 [?\]: Anton Chernykh qualified for Globis this Friday
miao [8d\]: is 8 a move here?
miao [8d\]: aiming at l5
miao [8d\]: *k8
miao [8d\]: propably just l6 here though
miao [8d\]: or l7
EGPF1 [?\]: moreover, a time setting for Globis is 1 min basic time plus 10x 30 sec byoyomi
]
;B[jo]C[Uberdude [4d?\]: miao on fire
Uberdude [4d?\]: k8 is LZ #1
miao [8d\]: haha
miao [8d\]: call me miao0 :D
Uberdude [4d?\]: nice idea once you see it, w direction suspicious to not help other group, so lean to build strength
Uberdude [4d?\]: oh ilya is white
Uberdude [4d?\]: i was about to say this black position is the kind of thing ilya good at
BaobabWeg [3d\]: k9 is not natural ddirection okay, but after m4 w is just out
Uberdude [4d?\]: not so easuily out if you answer k8 leanings
miao [8d\]: k5 is a bit suspicious
U [-\]: i miss the days when people thought for themselves and didnt just plug it into a bot to tell them what to think
tugkan [2d\]: What about l5
kjh97 [8d\]: l5 only move
kjh97 [8d\]: well
dfeldmann [5d\]: there is still a lot to think for understanding what the bot says
kjh97 [8d\]: nvm
coffee123: welcome to the new world
U [-\]: well when a lot of its reading is based on impossible standards, i dont see how it helps humans
kjh97 [8d\]: would've thought k8 was natural move, wrong direction for w, b can borrow strength before attacking
mathejames [1d\]: where can we find the results?
hvk [-\]: Gg b
dfeldmann [5d\]: the problem was already the same when watching games of Lee Sedol...
Strengwert [2k?\]: http://www.olgo.cz/en/clanky/2018/grand-prix-final-2018-olomouc/
momiji [2d\]: just project forward. where will ai be in 10 years, 20, etc
U [-\]: but sedol is human, so it could happen. bots read at an impossible spees so humans cant replicate it
Uberdude [4d?\]: but bots are dumb at ladders
]
;W[lp]C[U [-\]: thats cause it reads in width and not length
EGPF1 [?\]: http://www.olgo.cz/en/clanky/2018/grand-prix-final-2018-olomouc/
dfeldmann [5d\]: 1) you dont understand how those bots works (hint : they read few moves, but the good ones)
dfeldmann [5d\]: 2) Uneless you are pro, your chances to understand Lee Sedol moves by yourself are slim
miao [8d\]: m5  n5 l4 is a problem?
U [-\]: if it reads 10,000 variations a second then what good is you trying to emulate it
TheThe [4k\]: nobody understands how the bots work, not even themselfes
EGPF1 [?\]: Pavol is on 28 minutes, Ilja on 16 minutes
scurge [?\]: yep not even the elfes
EGPF1 [?\]: Fisher time is used, 45 minutes plus 20 sec additional time per move
U [-\]: i dont know how you dont see the difference between a bot and sedol. a bot is a boit. sedol is human
dfeldmann [5d\]: How do you know.
U [-\]: well you have no rebuttal then
momiji [2d\]: the distinction will blur more and more
dfeldmann [5d\]: I see easily the difference between a bot and Lee Sedol. I see also the difference between tou and Lee Sedol
TheThe [4k\]: bot is a bot, human is human - meaningless statements
kjh97 [8d\]: m5 n5 l4 j5 possibly
miao [8d\]: j6 and then?
kjh97 [8d\]: m6 l5 k6 
U [-\]: the entire gameplan of bots is based on reading at a speed impossible for humans so emulating it is unnecessary
Shamash [?\]: sad that wuhao is'nt here to comment, on twitch it's a commentary for beginners =/
dfeldmann [5d\]: By the way, many pros (Lee Sedol among them) are actively studying, using those bots as teachers
kjh97 [8d\]: n6 m2 
]
;B[jl]C[U [-\]: and if the distinction blurs then servers and people need to act now to take bots out of the game
kjh97 [8d\]: lol now he comes here..
kjh97 [8d\]: fine as well i guess
TheThe [4k\]: modern bots are true AI, not speed-readers
miao [8d\]: yeah
miao [8d\]: still strong
TheThe [4k\]: you can't speed read go
dfeldmann [5d\]: And again, speed is absolutely not the matter, you really should study what difference deep learning has made
momiji [2d\]: if you want to change the future that's coming fast, you gotta do radical things
U [-\]: all i know is deep learning ruined go for many
Shamash [?\]: that's not true
U [-\]: its very true
dfeldmann [5d\]: speak for yourself ; among strong French players, it has not
TheThe [4k\]: it will ruin your life later on when bots AI will do all the jobs and you wont have anything to do
]
;W[no]C[dfeldmann [5d\]: so what ? I am retired
TheThe [4k\]: lol
Shamash [?\]: ahah
TheThe [4k\]: we will all be retired
Shamash [?\]: nice feldmann ;)
TheThe [4k\]: or even terminated
Takimme [1k\]: what time has opponents?
U [-\]: mostly its ruined online go
EGPF1 [?\]: Ilja has 14 min left, Pavol 24 min left
anarchia: i play more online games than ever before... and i don`t see it ruined
]
;B[ik]C[Shamash [?\]: lot of people love watching AI clashing on kgs
dfeldmann [5d\]: yes, because some people are cheaters
Shamash [?\]: very instructive
U [-\]: cant find a game, so many people use bots now in dan level. hardly any 9d lvl on fox/tygem play humans, they play bots. 80% of high dan games on kgs are bots
dfeldmann [5d\]: It has ruined tournament online, perhaps
U [-\]: cant play a game against a random person because you ghave to worry about people using bots
dfeldmann [5d\]: why?
Takimme [1k\]: thank you EGPF1
U [-\]: cant play correspondence games, on like OGS, i lose to 6 kyus who use bots
Shamash [?\]: you play to learn, idk if it's a human or a bot
dfeldmann [5d\]: indeed
U [-\]: if i want to play a bot ill play a bot. if i want to play a human i dont want to worry about whether theyre cheating
U [-\]: but now online go is full of cheating
anarchia: U has a bad day today
]
;W[op]
;B[oq]C[tugkan [2d\]: Unfortunately
dxxd [1d\]: I learned more from bots than humans, way easier
U [-\]: well you learn wrong things most likely
dxxd [1d\]: no conflicting opinions
tugkan [2d\]: U is a bit right
Shamash [?\]: humanity learned more from bots fan humans in go history
Shamash [?\]: than*
jimmy [1k\]: I agree with U.
]
;W[ij]C[U [-\]: you cant even have a good kibitz in these relayed games anymore because you have random DDKs who spam leela numbers and what leela would play
Carl [2d?\]: how can you say you learn wrong things from bots. When bots have proven humans have been teaching things wrong for so long (e.g. early 3x3 invasion & joseksi)
tugkan [2d\]: But in free games, no matter
U [-\]: leela was a big catalyst in the downfall of online go
Laman [2d\]: there are some unfortunate issues, but U is mostly trolling
U [-\]: they want to provide a free cheat tool for free...
kjh97 [8d\]: oh cry me a river shush
U [-\]: it was the final step. stpe 1 being the alphago nonsense
]
;B[jj]
;W[kk]
;B[hj]C[anarchia: what now?
]
;W[hk]C[kjh97 [8d\]: now it begins
anarchia: yup
TheClown [1d\]: ko i love kos
Shamash [?\]: ko ko ri ko
U [-\]: the bots even made pro games more boring
tugkan [2d\]: Exciting game
U [-\]: i dont see the good from it
Shamash [?\]: pro games more boring ? Are U kidding ?
U [-\]: every game has almost same fuseki
anarchia: U, please, give us a minute, let us enjoy the game :)
U [-\]: move, move, 3-3, same joseki
Shamash [?\]: come on, such bad faith ahahah dont feed the troll anymore guys
]
;B[ii]
;W[il]C[U [-\]: im glad you enjoy seeing people play 3-3 every single game ever
U [-\]: but i like variety
tugkan [2d\]: I guess no one will tenuki lol
Uberdude [4d?\]: ponnuki power
yuki [5d\]: bots opened variety in the middle game
U [-\]: theres no imagination anymore
scurge [?\]: even in fuseki if you check alpha alpha games. 
U [-\]: dont they have the ability to plug in certain fusekis
Shamash [?\]: Haters gonna hate
Shamash [?\]: players gonna improve =)*
U [-\]: i remember i said i was going to quit go after alphago/lee game 1, i wish i had
tugkan [2d\]: U cant imagine
U [-\]: everyone drinking the koolaid now
Shamash [?\]: please do <3
]
;B[jm]
;W[ij]
;B[ep]C[Laman [2d\]: its never too late
]
;W[eo]
;B[ik]C[Shamash [?\]: instead of crying here
Shamash [?\]: like a sissy
U [-\]: at least it gets people to stop plugging leela numbers into here
U [-\]: youre french and calling me sissy? ok
]
;W[hp]C[Uberdude [4d?\]: sorry, i was on the phone, i;ll get back to plugging leela numbers :p
]
;B[gq]
;W[ij]C[Shamash [?\]: cool thanks Uberdude =D
]
;B[aq]C[U [-\]: cant win the british championship so gotta resort to bots ig uess
Uberdude [4d?\]: burn!
inte [?\]: . o O ( LZ: 23.73% for humanity )
]
;W[bp]
;B[ik]C[Uberdude [4d?\]: bots made my british championship games fun
Uberdude [4d?\]: i tried out lots of bot ideas
U [-\]: i mean if you want to troll me i can fight back
U [-\]: its not often you can know so clearly why you lost a game, i think thats good
Rawrie [3k\]: Bots didn't ruin chess and they won't ruin Go :)
U [-\]: they kinda did
Uberdude [4d?\]: so LZ says white shouldn't have given the ponnuki, but otherwise both playing very well
Shamash [?\]: come on let's focus on the game
Uberdude [4d?\]: also would play o5 at p3 first, with o5 it tihnks b should resist with n5 instead of reverting to this result
inte [?\]: bots aren't ruining games; they may be ruining the kibitz
]
;W[cs]C[anarchia: i disagree with lz,now the game is really interesting
U [-\]: id like to have some conversations that dont revolve on what bots think of positions
Argonauta [6k\]: please keep the comments on the game or go to another room to chat
anarchia: then make that conversation, U, that`s simple..
Argonauta [6k\]: thanks
Shamash [?\]: ok so if you have a pro level human that tell you if the move is good or not you will ignore him ?
U [-\]: because bots just dont know anything most of the time. id never trust what it says outside of fuseki
U [-\]: id trust a human much more than a bot
]
;B[dr]C[Uberdude [4d?\]: let's stop talking about bots and talk about the game eh?
]
;W[ij]
;B[ap]
;W[ar]C[Shamash [?\]: yes please
]
;B[ik]C[Rawrie [3k\]: Agreed
U [-\]: as long as you dont contribute to that, sure
fire1 [1k\]: yeah that
fire1 [1k\]: ,sounds better
]
;W[ci]C[Rawrie [3k\]: Uberdude what do you mean that LZ said that white shouldn't have given the ponnuki?
scurge [?\]: bot black group is ko right?
U [-\]: and its ruined
Uberdude [4d?\]: extend j11 instead of h9
scurge [?\]: what I liked for black is turning pretty good for w :O
U [-\]: you guys couldnt go one line without talking about bots
Uberdude [4d?\]: sacrifice left stones and build right side
Rawrie [3k\]: That's interesting...
VIXX [7d\]: you play go based on trust? my...
]
;B[bi]
;W[ij]C[Uberdude [4d?\]: h10 j11 h9 l8 k7 l7 
scurge [?\]: At each broadcast we could clone the game, one with bot friendly  kibitz second with the opposit
U [-\]: that would be nice but i dont see anyone putting in that effort
]
;B[ao]
;W[bq]
;B[ik]
;W[bl]C[kjh97 [8d\]: because it would be daft
]
;B[al]
;W[ij]C[Krapsman [2k\]: l4?
U [-\]: well not everyone cares about your bleep bloop nonsense
Uberdude [4d?\]: U can start your own bot-free clone
dfeldmann [5d\]: b is missing ko threats, no?
Uberdude [4d?\]: n4 is one more
Uberdude [4d?\]: kinda double threat
Laman [2d\]: hi, Sonka
U [-\]: i like having commentary from strong players. instead weaker players just spam leela numbers and its pointless
kjh97 [8d\]: i ain't using a bot
Uberdude [4d?\]: w thought it was too small?
Krapsman [2k\]: L4 first?
tugkan [2d\]: Is bottom Seki?
U [-\]: well some are, and often brag about it
dfeldmann [5d\]: k4 first
Uberdude [4d?\]: if you mean me, I'm not bragging. I;m making clear what is my 4d view and what is LZ view soe people can decide how much to trust it
Shamash [?\]: w dont' seems to have a lot of ko threat too
]
;B[ll]C[dfeldmann [5d\]: no seki here
kjh97 [8d\]: why no seki
]
;W[ik]
;B[mo]C[Uberdude [4d?\]: so here the question is if w connects does black n5 kill
dfeldmann [5d\]: J1->H1, F2<->F1
anarchia: it does not according to what i envisioned with my kyu eyes
]
;W[mp]
;B[nq]C[kjh97 [8d\]: just f2
tugkan [2d\]: F2 first
Shamash [?\]: w connection is painfull
zxcvbnm [2d\]: Is it?
zxcvbnm [2d\]: White bottom isn't exactly clear from danger
]
;W[im]C[Shamash [?\]: push and peep
Uberdude [4d?\]: making l6 peep
Uberdude [4d?\]: this comment is 100% bot free
zxcvbnm [2d\]: Yeah, but you can threaten right side first
]
;B[in]C[zxcvbnm [2d\]: White will need to return to j6 later on
Uberdude [4d?\]: safe of people with gluten intolerance too
Shamash [?\]: come on Uberdude, dont awake the beast again xD
zxcvbnm [2d\]: But since black connected the group.....
Goudogo [8k\]: B is a Bot ?
Rawrie [3k\]: Uberdude you should make another account called UberdudeLZProphet or something and write LZ stuff on that one
comeon [6d\]: whre is Popi Grande?
zxcvbnm [2d\]: My comment is now moot
]
;W[mn]C[comeon [6d\]: where is
comeon [6d\]: Popi > rest
anarchia: LZ_Prophet that`s a good one :-)
Uberdude [4d?\]: 10 chars make username
Rawrie [3k\]: awww 10 char limit? That's a bummer
U [-\]: popic? he had to drop out of tournament?
Rawrie [3k\]: UberProphet then
siuan [2k\]: L4
Rawrie [3k\]: .. that's 11, I can maths
Shamash [?\]: so the bottom is fine
]
;B[kp]C[kjh97 [8d\]: w will sacrifice 4
]
;W[ko]C[dabe005 [-\]: who's winning for LZ?
]
;B[jp]C[Weishenme [6d\]: yes
]
;W[lq]C[VIXX [7d\]: what's more relevant is who's winning for the players
anarchia: how important is c12?
Shamash [?\]: like i said zxcbnm, the W connection is painfull, i feel like k2 is a too small gain 
]
;B[jq]C[Shamash [?\]: small and gote
zxcvbnm [2d\]: Perhaps so
Uberdude [4d?\]: i think not much anarchia
Uberdude [4d?\]: so close to ultra alive black group
]
;W[nc]C[Uberdude [4d?\]: you'd rather spend a move on corner like f17
]
;B[qf]C[play234 [-\]: who is better here, b or w?
anarchia: right, thanks
zxcvbnm [2d\]: I prefer b at the moment
VIXX [7d\]: why? :)
]
;W[jd]C[Shamash [?\]: love W position
Mirus [3d\]: lz prefers w
Argonauta [6k\]: white is winning
Shamash [?\]: the center will be W
anarchia: this white center wall is quite something
Uberdude [4d?\]: i think white is happy that r11 lost attacking power
Shamash [?\]: still can cut at l8
zxcvbnm [2d\]: j11 set is basically light, can play c12 to nullify thickness, top left corner still open
zxcvbnm [2d\]: Is my thought process
]
;B[nn]
;W[lo]C[dss: ws position is great
]
;B[on]
;W[oo]C[Shamash [?\]: nice move
]
;B[mm]
;W[ro]C[Uberdude [4d?\]: w still has m7 if he wants to capture n7
]
;B[rp]
;W[sp]
;B[sq]
;W[so]
;B[rr]C[Uberdude [4d?\]: or tenuki?
Uberdude [4d?\]: r12, q17 f17?
U [-\]: i feel like he will tenuki
snowman [-\]: this fight might be over
jimmy [1k\]: c14?
tugkan [2d\]: W is in sente
tugkan [2d\]: Again
anarchia: f17 white
qazxsw: c12
Uberdude [4d?\]: c14 close to strong black
SpeqtR [1k\]: Ilja havent point
]
;W[ne]C[U [-\]: i never know best way of playing with such a top formation
r0n1n [4d?\]: c12 or o15 
r0n1n [4d?\]: ah, too slow
U [-\]: o15 is my default, i guess its ok then
x0000 [-\]: who is winning?
DellaLu: c17 big
VIXX [7d\]: w doesn't seem as concerned about mid as b is hopeful about it
anarchia: maybe attachment? like j16
Shamash [?\]: r11 ?
Uberdude [4d?\]: p17 is traditional
VIXX [7d\]: tradition is out the window
VIXX [7d\]: :3
First [2d?\]: h-hi vixx
Uberdude [4d?\]: o15 was pretty old school, repay it
]
;B[qi]C[Shamash [?\]: yeah ! =D i was right
U [-\]: r11 reasonably old school too
VIXX [7d\]: how so? :)
Shamash [?\]: thanks to my bot
ben0 [7d\]: o6 feels like quite a mistake
Shamash [?\]: i'm kidding
EGPF1 [?\]: B 13 min left, W 10 min left
Shamash [?\]: 7o cut ?
miao [8d\]: ben is right
Shamash [?\]: O7*
ben0 [7d\]: ben is always right
U [-\]: i think o7 is slow but i dunno
]
;W[pg]C[ben0 [7d\]: but yeah, pavol just lost sente for nothing
dss: what is the third rule?
ben0 [7d\]: o15 was huge
]
;B[qg]C[Uberdude [4d?\]: r13 is obedient
anarchia: black is either patient
anarchia: or
Shamash [?\]: ilya begging to close his center
anarchia: obedient :)
kjh97 [8d\]: right side is small
U [-\]: i think w too strong outside to fight back tho?
Uberdude [4d?\]: LZ suggests r8 not r13
VIXX [7d\]: r13 wasn't for local points though
Uberdude [4d?\]: w has q11 and m7 as kinda miai now to settle the group
miao [8d\]: i don´t understnad r8 ver well i have to say
zxcvbnm [2d\]: Neither do I
VIXX [7d\]: maybe invites sac, more tempo on the outside
]
;W[fd]C[Uberdude [4d?\]: it thinks w best response is m7, then black gets q9, so the harder questios is what if white ansewrs
miao [8d\]: not sure
VIXX [7d\]: since w can't throw it away
dss: actually lz suggests r13 too
]
;B[oc]
;W[nb]
;B[ch]C[zxcvbnm [2d\]: Heh
zxcvbnm [2d\]: Pavol just doesn't care
VIXX [7d\]: either one or the other, rather than a less severe middle
Uberdude [4d?\]: if q8 hane then crosscut
]
;W[eh]C[Uberdude [4d?\]: get some free forcing moves
miao [8d\]: f12 hm
dss: why q 13?
]
;B[li]C[U [-\]: help with securing middle pts probably, and hes never going to invade that
zxcvbnm [2d\]: Kikashi 
U [-\]: or attacking i should say
zxcvbnm [2d\]: May help in the future in case b runs to the right side
Uberdude [4d?\]: i think q13s prupose is to create q11 escape route for white group
Uberdude [4d?\]: ilya wanted to not defend against r11 in gote
]
;W[mj]C[Uberdude [4d?\]: he seems to be controlling flow of the game well
First [2d?\]: I am taking a nap
First [2d?\]: see you later vixx
]
;B[mi]
;W[ni]C[Uberdude [4d?\]: i think pvol will cut
U [-\]: about has to it seems like
Uberdude [4d?\]: or something else violent
]
;B[lj]
;W[lk]
;B[mk]
;W[nj]C[zxcvbnm [2d\]: This will be the turning point then
U [-\]: q13 is nicely placed
]
;B[hh]C[VIXX [7d\]: tough, b probably anticipated this might happen; i wonder if b considered playing kikashi around top side before e.g. s2
Concinnity [2k\]: What's your overall assessment? Black seems to be have around ~46 points, and white doesn't have much secure territory.
U [-\]: w will probabl secure top territory with this fight at least
Shamash [?\]: hunting season is oppened for Ilya
dxxd [1d\]: white will secure the top attacking this middle group
Concinnity [2k\]: Can white make 40+ points at the top?
Pepe [1d\]: Whats the byo yomi
U [-\]: thats about 40-ish
Uberdude [4d?\]: it's fischer time
zxcvbnm [2d\]: Depends on how well Pavol handles the center group
]
;W[kh]
;B[ji]C[zxcvbnm [2d\]: Or rather, how well Ilya attacks
Uberdude [4d?\]: 20 sec increment
zxcvbnm [2d\]: For all we know the center may even die
Shamash [?\]: yep
play234 [-\]: exciting
]
;W[ng]C[U [-\]: even fi this lives it feels like w can get enough pts to lead going into endgame
Shamash [?\]: Ilya is known as the european leesedol after all ahah
Krapsman [2k\]: e13
]
;B[fi]C[hvk [-\]: Ggg
Argonauta [6k\]: Lee Sedol is the korean Ilya
]
;W[fj]C[Shamash [?\]: i would not go so far Argonauta =p
Argonauta [6k\]: :)
]
;B[eg]C[play234 [-\]: this is so complicated
bert [?\]: korea is not that far
Concinnity [2k\]: j9 loos fragile
Shamash [?\]: My god, these two moves are sharp
Goudogo [8k\]: its a w a little on the backfoot
VIXX [7d\]: hmm, i think w could have just sacced it, but, fight ensues i g
Goudogo [8k\]: isnt*
zxcvbnm [2d\]: Oh boy
zxcvbnm [2d\]: I just realized g10 is basically a stick
Uberdude [4d?\]: pavol has a chance to catch up
Concinnity [2k\]: Isn't he ahead? :)
coffee123: oh no :(
Laman [2d\]: not really
Uberdude [4d?\]: w has a sneaky ko at l8
Uberdude [4d?\]: but not a picnic
U [-\]: i was gonna comment earlier if b was going ot a hunt a capturing race with this group but it seemed like w had too many ways out
U [-\]: but now
Uberdude [4d?\]: white o13 could have been f12 to avoid problems
zxcvbnm [2d\]: That ko is so double edged though Uberdude
zxcvbnm [2d\]: Bottom and bottom right may die
U [-\]: yeah i wasnt a fan of o13, but im guessing he missed this 
Uberdude [4d?\]: yes, heavy ko
Liso66 [?\]: how much time they have now?
Goudogo [8k\]: time
Goudogo [8k\]: snap :)
play234 [-\]: maybe ilja asumed j9 was so strong that he became careless
Uberdude [4d?\]: how things change, if white l12 was l10 atari then LZ gives 92% (because then white n12 is sente
Shamash [?\]: i dont think at this level you can be careless play234 
U [-\]: well if anyone can read his way out of trouble its ilya
EGPF1 [?\]: Pavol almost 12 minutes left, Ilja is in his last minute
play234 [-\]: ouch, no time in this situation, mistakes will be made
Uberdude [4d?\]: egpf, can you see where on the board is ilya looking?
]
;W[kl]
;B[km]
;W[lm]C[Concinnity [2k\]: Can j10 still be sacrificed, or is it too much now?
Shamash [?\]: here wo go for the ko
]
;B[ln]
;W[kn]
;B[jn]
;W[lm]C[bert [?\]: heh heh, he is looking at the ko
Shamash [?\]: happy ko for B
Uberdude [4d?\]: b doesn't have many threats
]
;B[hc]C[Krapsman [2k\]: f12 enough?
zxcvbnm [2d\]: Not sure about the best threat though
Krapsman [2k\]: nope :)
zxcvbnm [2d\]: Was wonder something like h16
play234 [-\]: w ignore
Uberdude [4d?\]: nothing clearly huge
]
;W[hd]
;B[ln]C[Shamash [?\]: w can't ignore, it's his points
Uberdude [4d?\]: oh i thought would ignore
Liso66 [?\]: what leela thought?
Wheerus [4d\]: not just points, it's important that w doesn't let b center become strong
Shamash [?\]: yes also
Uberdude [4d?\]: p8 area is like 20+ free points
Wheerus [4d\]: otherwise the value of ko is meaningless
Goudogo [8k\]: time?
]
;W[fg]
;B[fh]
;W[lm]C[Uberdude [4d?\]: leela thinks should capture, then 97% white, answer is now only 76%
Shamash [?\]: pavol attaking at f11 + e13 is admirable
Uberdude [4d?\]: thnks b should ignore too
]
;B[id]
;W[ie]
;B[ln]
;W[dh]C[U [-\]: it was his only shot, cause id ont think he could have lived without the counter attack
]
;B[dg]
;W[lm]C[Concinnity [2k\]: n5 for black is pretty big,
]
;B[gd]C[Goudogo [8k\]: so wh should 100% ignor next threat
]
;W[ic]C[jimmy [1k\]: Not enough if k11 dies. 
Uberdude [4d?\]: wouldn't make sense to ignore that atari after playing first ansers
]
;B[ln]
;W[ff]C[anarchia: wow
anarchia: f14 really nice
Uberdude [4d?\]: ilya reads fast
Uberdude [4d?\]: c13 does work
miao [8d\]: yes
U [-\]: pavol has time to read it i think egpf said he had over 10 min on clock
U [-\]: ilya has like 1 min or something
miao [8d\]: they question is how black can continue the ko
ben0 [7d\]: yup, not easy
Uberdude [4d?\]: e15 now
EGPF1 [?\]: Pavol now about 10 minutes, Ilja over 1 minutes
Uberdude [4d?\]: makes more mess on top side
EGPF1 [?\]: almost 2 minutes
]
;B[ge]C[ben0 [7d\]: e15 doesnt help c13 cut so
ben0 [7d\]: not good
Uberdude [4d?\]: e15 c13 c14 b13 f15 
U [-\]: this ones above my level
]
;W[cg]
;B[di]
;W[ei]C[bert [?\]: if e15 then c13 d11 e11 c14 b13 b14, so it does help the cut 
]
;B[cf]
;W[bg]
;B[df]
;W[bf]
;B[cd]C[ben0 [7d\]: i mean w answers c15
ben0 [7d\]: f15 or so
ben0 [7d\]: e15* w answers f15 to e15
miao [8d\]: this is so complicated
Argonauta [6k\]: h13 
anarchia: what a game...
Shamash [?\]: wonderfull
]
;W[be]C[anarchia: these two know how to make crowd happy
]
;B[ee]
;W[fe]C[scurge [?\]: I d say b in trouble
U [-\]: pavol did a double take like he didnt think he would play this
]
;B[ed]
;W[ec]C[U [-\]: he didnt think ilya would play b15
]
;B[dc]
;W[db]
;B[de]C[scurge [?\]: haha i hope w c17
ben0 [7d\]: another ko incoming
zxcvbnm [2d\]: So insane
zxcvbnm [2d\]: I'm loving it
]
;W[fb]C[ben0 [7d\]: pfffff
Shamash [?\]: clash of titans
Concinnity [2k\]: Isn't this disaster for white?
ben0 [7d\]: well depends
ben0 [7d\]: if black dies, it's ok for w
ben0 [7d\]: no need to thank me for insightful comment
Uberdude [4d?\]: if white dies but has enough ko threats to win ko not bad for w either?
ben0 [7d\]: my*
Concinnity [2k\]: Thank you :)
ttonndaa [?\]: lol ben0
]
;B[bd]
;W[lm]C[Uberdude [4d?\]: U should thank you for insightful comments free from bot
ben0 [7d\]: well c17 makes a ko again
white333: ko makes go interesting...
ben0 [7d\]: well ofc I could just use leela but that's not so fun
U [-\]: you can tell from the webcam how intense this in. theyre both slamming stones down
Goudogo [8k\]: link?
]
;B[cb]C[ben0 [7d\]: that's called time pressure
]
;W[ml]C[U [-\]: ilya has it, pavol doesnt
]
;B[gc]C[U [-\]: but hes doing it anyway
]
;W[fc]C[U [-\]: https://www.twitch.tv/europeangofederation1
Goudogo [8k\]: ty
ben0 [7d\]: that's called mimicking
Shamash [?\]: kiai
U [-\]: thats the non-commentary
dfeldmann [5d\]: no solution for b now ?
Shamash [?\]: fighting will
U [-\]: but it has webcams
miao [8d\]: maybe it can be a trade
Uberdude [4d?\]: I asked SE and it says white wins by 42 points
Concinnity [2k\]: SE is pretty lethal
Shamash [?\]: if black lives it's done
Argonauta [6k\]: SE > Alphago
zxcvbnm [2d\]: That's a pretty big if though
jimmy [1k\]: https://ibb.co/dM9V3g3
U [-\]: i dont see it living
U [-\]: but ive been wrong before
Shamash [?\]: we can do everything with an If =p
ben0 [7d\]: not sure what to do now
Concinnity [2k\]: Is there anything else black can do?
Uberdude [4d?\]: even if middle black lives w can win
ben0 [7d\]: h1 feels kinda needed
dfeldmann [5d\]: Ben0, you see a way for b?
ben0 [7d\]: h14*
ben0 [7d\]: well
miao [8d\]: h14 (maybe)
]
;B[if]C[miao [8d\]: :)
miao [8d\]: huh
miao [8d\]: this is curious
ben0 [7d\]: yep
ben0 [7d\]: i like it
hibiskus [1k?\]: next ko?
anarchia: more koish
miao [8d\]: g14?
]
;W[hb]C[scurge [?\]: g14 would end in potato in my opinion
ben0 [7d\]: but, looks hard to make 2 eyes
Uberdude [4d?\]: sayonara
Uberdude [4d?\]: as catalin would say
dfeldmann [5d\]: now b will perhaps live, but stay behind
ben0 [7d\]: h15 j16 now then.... 
scurge [?\]: k15
Argonauta [6k\]: eyes are for kyus 
miao [8d\]: is black behind?
]
;B[he]C[ben0 [7d\]: if he dies ? yeah probably
ben0 [7d\]: :)
white333: ilya is too strong
]
;W[id]C[ben0 [7d\]: so what now
miao [8d\]: g13
ben0 [7d\]: m13 ?
scurge [?\]: I dont like h15 :(
miao [8d\]: hm
ben0 [7d\]: ah g13 is not bad maybe yup
]
;B[jf]C[miao [8d\]: complicated
Argonauta [6k\]: h13 
Goudogo [8k\]: i dont fully get why g18 isnt being played but b but ill keep working on it :)
ben0 [7d\]: well this last move is aimig at g18
VIXX [7d\]: ^
ben0 [7d\]: and the attach in l16
sloth [4d\]: g18 is a matter of liberties
Concinnity [2k\]: Have a look at the liberties of the g15 stick
Uberdude [4d?\]: and gobble at m13
]
;W[hf]C[ben0 [7d\]: but ilya doesnt give any chance
ben0 [7d\]: now I dont see anything
Shamash [?\]: did you already played one of them ben0 ?
ben0 [7d\]: both yup
Shamash [?\]: how was it ? ahah
]
;B[mf]C[ben0 [7d\]: with pavol I have 1-2 or 1-3 maybe
Goudogo [8k\]: now its over? w can connect under in sente?
ben0 [7d\]: ilya 0-1
Concinnity [2k\]: Yes, w can connect
]
;W[mg]
;B[lg]C[Concinnity [2k\]: I guess black gets h13 in sente now, but it's no use
]
;W[hg]C[ben0 [7d\]: but I played like 100+ games with pavol on kgs probably :D
Concinnity [2k\]: Ah, not even
Argonauta [6k\]: w h13
U [-\]: about that
Shamash [?\]: oh you won against pavol, strong ;)
sloth [4d\]: looks very bulky 5ish
]
;B[ig]C[scurge [?\]: hmm
Argonauta [6k\]: black may die
]
;W[pe]C[scurge [?\]: I'd say black may live
Shamash [?\]: i'm smelling blood
anarchia: i thought he died already
scurge [?\]: m15 
Concinnity [2k\]: w thinks b died in gote?!
ben0 [7d\]: well now black can live but...
Uberdude [4d?\]: prudent
VIXX [7d\]: or timesuji
Uberdude [4d?\]: Concinnity, no, get some support for kill
Uberdude [4d?\]: or if b live w desotry that corner and win anyway
Concinnity [2k\]: l12 lives right?
elligain [1d\]: w dont need to kill to win
Concinnity [2k\]: sorry, k12
]
;B[oe]
;W[of]
;B[od]
;W[qe]C[lynx2k [2k\]: who is leading?
elligain [1d\]: w
Concinnity [2k\]: why not a bit more fighting?
U [-\]: ilya never backs off
lynx2k [2k\]: ty
]
;B[pf]C[Shamash [?\]: when are you coming back to france ben0 ?
Uberdude [4d?\]: i don;t think even ilya could win this as black
]
;W[nd]C[ben0 [7d\]: dunno
miao [8d\]: gg
miao [8d\]: 98% for white
Shamash [?\]: aie
]
;B[ob]C[ben0 [7d\]: yeah, game over
]
;W[qd]
;B[qc]
;W[rc]
;B[qb]
;W[rb]
;B[rf]C[anarchia: i still have 2% of hope
]
;W[kg]C[Uberdude [4d?\]: bit odd for white not ro play s14 himself
U [-\]: cause he plan to tenuki i guess
]
;B[lf]C[VIXX [7d\]: i sometimes wonder how many times he runs his hands through his hair haha
]
;W[kf]C[Song17 [4d\]: g17 still helping a bit
hotfridge [1k\]: just go get a haricut!
]
;B[ke]
;W[le]C[Song17 [4d\]: if this doesn't work for w, b will get some precentage back
scurge [?\]: m12?
]
;B[lh]
;W[kd]C[U [-\]: m12 seemed like only move
Song17 [4d\]: ouch
scurge [?\]: aha
U [-\]: bulky 5 it is
Song17 [4d\]: res
Weishenme [6d\]: I suggest to resign
scurge [?\]: o12?:/
]
;B[ib]
;W[gb]C[kjh97 [8d\]: ...
]
;B[nf]
;W[og]
;B[me]C[U [-\]: trying to find that 1%
EGPF1 [?\]: Pavol 2,5 min left, Ilja 1,5 min left
Argonauta [6k\]: I could kill all white stones - if i play white
Concinnity [2k\]: The low % is for bad mistakes of course
ben0 [7d\]: even this atari is tricky haha
tugkan [2d\]: Nice skill argo
kjh97 [8d\]: lol low dan would lose this game
]
;W[ld]
;B[md]C[ben0 [7d\]: w connects, b pushes again, and I think w can only answer m17
Argonauta [6k\]: m18
kjh97 [8d\]: m18 loses
sloth [4d\]: m17 
qazxsw: m18
]
;W[lc]C[ben0 [7d\]: so unnatural haha
Arhiman [4d\]: shape move
sloth [4d\]: white needs to make sure k15 is not atari on the top group
]
;B[pk]
;W[pj]C[Liekedeler: see no change for b to win
Uberdude [4d?\]: n16 m18 n17 n18 m17 l17 k15 k13 l18 j12 k18 is the trap
]
;B[qj]
;W[ok]C[Shamash [?\]: give and win
ben0 [7d\]: old ilya would play s9 cause he wants all
ben0 [7d\]: now he knows when to be super safe
Arhiman [4d\]: old ilya was fun
sloth [4d\]: its easier to read if you just cut at l18 first
scurge [?\]: w + 20 even if it goes wrong here
U [-\]: its dangerous when an aggressive player learns when to back off
ben0 [7d\]: what do you mean by goes wrong ? :D
sai777: tuyoi
ZeNit [?\]: New Ilya is pretty cool too
hotfridge [1k\]: that jacket though
EGPF1 [?\]: W+r
ZeNit [?\]: gg
EGPF1 [?\]: thanks for your watching
Liso66 [?\]: thx
Uberdude [4d?\]: congrats ilya, and very nice game from both
anarchia: thanks egpf
hibiskus [1k?\]: thx a lot
new123 [4k\]: thx
Shamash [?\]: standing ovation for both players
anarchia: time to come back to reality
ben0 [7d\]: solid game
ZeNit [?\]: thank you for relaying, EGPF1
white333: GG thx ilya&pavol
marty [2k\]: wehat is egpf
qazxsw: Поздравляю. Илья!
SpeqtR [1k\]: ну и драка
Goudogo [8k\]: thanks 
marty [2k\]: what is EGPF
Goudogo [8k\]: the human relaying the moves
Goudogo [8k\]: (username)
Liso66 [?\]: ilja could reach 2800 rating...
Uberdude [4d?\]: would he beat the koreans at 2800 though?
])
